Ooops,
sorry for appearing as \"Guest\" on my former message. Forgot to sign in...
I stand for what I say (and write) so here\'s my signature and e-dress and whatever other things \'legalize\' me as a list member.

Saludos,

Haymo
(81° F at 15:29 h) :8

Sporty is the founder of the VentoScooters Yahoo Group and he\'s put a lot of work in it to make it what it is today. Originally when I was planning to do this site, I asked Sporty if he would be willing to shift everyone over to a web based rather than e-mail based format and he was not interested in doing so because some users like the e-mail based format (even if there are 30+ messages per day), because Yahoo has been around longer (and will be around longer) than our site, and because he would lose some level of control over the group. I felt very lucky that I could even get some level of integration between the two, as starting my own forums here from scratch would have not only taken more time and been more difficult on my end, but it wouldn\'t have allowed me to tie the best two Vento related internet resources together. I also really didn\'t want the two mediums to compete against one another. The current arrangement is mutually beneficial to both this site and the yahoo group.

There really isn\'t anything that can be done about the extremely long quoted posts, it\'s an annoyance that at the moment we just have to deal with. There are other forums here than the VentoScooters group though, and since they are not e-mail based, they don\'t have the same problem that the VentoScooters forum does (with long replies).

There haven\'t been any major updates to the software I\'m using since the beta (which we have in place) was released last August.

The reason I put \"LOL\" was how in the world am I supposed to get all the people to do it (No Piggybacking) Fine them? Ban them? What?
I\'m not going to turn a fun group into a group with rules. Why? Because rules SUCK and I don\'t hear a bunch of people whining about it, If I had more people that thought it was a big thing I would try to do something but 1 or 2 people out of 1000 just won\'t push me to start making rules on a group that has been moderating itself very well.

Just for a laugh, This is the Welcome message for a scooter group in town I started>>>& gt;
Milwaukee Area Scooter HellHounds,
We’re not for the faint of Heart,
We burp, We Swear, We pee on Tires,
And Occasionally We Fart,
If Etiquette is your cup of Tea, This is
what We say, Get your butt back on your scooter
and drive the Hell away !!!!<<<< <

Thats the 1st time I used the word \"Etiquette\" on the Internet.....and the last!!!!
Sporty

QUOTE:
Hi All,

You\'re saddling up the horse from the wrong end!

As an ex-owner and moderator of a 2000+ members list, the sinmplest solution would be no piggybacking. Period dot com.

Once we attain this level of list-culture - and I\'m not even mentioning netiquette - then that problem resolves itself automatically.

Sorry to say, but the (private) answer of Sporty on that subject was just three letters long:\"LOL\".
IMHO a very poor one since he does not seem to give a piece of excrement of how the list runs, and how annoying it is to have all these reposts ruminating all over a daily digest.

Mis dos centavos,

Haymo :8

:twisted:

Hi Sporty, Hi Rob, Hi All,

First, thank you, Rob, for intervening on Sporty\'s behalf, and explaining the problems of combining two different types of lists, e-mail-based and web-based. Point made and point taken.

As to Sporty\'s ‘charming’ answer:
There is more than \"one or two\" that are annoyed by the constant piggybacking, especially for those who are on a daily digest. Read, and listen to your list!
There is a word in my vocabulary that is called \"Please\". If you ask people \"Please do not piggyback\" and repeat that frequently, then somebody will eventually catch on in the long run.
This is called ‘conditioning’ and does not get in the way with the general flow of the list.

There seems to be a double standard on “rules”:
On one hand NO PRICING – written in capital letters – is a real “rule” which does not make much sense to me.
It hinders us consumers - mind you, eventually your clients! - from doing a fast check for the best available offer via the list, instead of haggling through endless parts-pages and unavailable answers (see comments on Vento / USA client service performance).

And, on the other hand, the request for “no piggybacking, please” – a purely non-commercial application – is seen as an attempt upon the very foundations of ‘your’ group, which gets me suggestions to “take my butt South”.
Glad to say, I am already “South”, so you don’t have to worry about me interfering in your little reign, so heroically defended.

There was a man in Wisconsin,
Who thought that he was ensconcing.
While running his list,
With a red-necked fist.
He lost my respect by responsing.

If you, Sporty, are having fun with the list, so am I, a reason why I joined and why I will not leave voluntarily.
But, a bit of criticism and some suggestions for the improvement (!) of the list are vital parts of the game, even if it is run only by your ‘rules’.

Cool it man, and chill out!

Saludos from a sunny \'southern\' Costa Rica,

Haymo

QUOTE:

First, thank you, Rob, for intervening on Sporty\'s behalf, and explaining the problems of combining two different types of lists, e-mail-based and web-based. Point made and point taken.

No problem. It really is a more complex issue than it would seem at first glance

QUOTE:

There seems to be a double standard on “rules”:
On one hand NO PRICING – written in capital letters – is a real “rule” which does not make much sense to me.
It hinders us consumers - mind you, eventually your clients! - from doing a fast check for the best available offer via the list, instead of haggling through endless parts-pages and unavailable answers (see comments on Vento / USA client service performance).

No double standards, this is a strict rule of both the VentoScooters Group and my website. Now I do sponsored banner ads on my site (which I have cut the rates down on btw ($cheap$)), but Yahoo does the same thing. At least I have some form of control over it on this end, and it\'s not some generic advertisement that anyone can place. I am also extremely (extremely!) picky about who I allow to sponsor the site -- if they aren\'t good to their customers and don\'t have a good reputation, I don\'t want them here. Ads posted here, and purchases made from those ads, do in some way reflect on my site.

There are a few reasons for that specific pricing is not allowed...
First and foremost, we want both the Yahoo Group or the forums here on the site to be SPAM free. I personally would rather not have to skip over posts because businesses are repeately posting pricing, etc (SPAM). A good example of why we should allow advertising is to look at news groups, check the spam to actual content ratio there. Granted, it may be easier to find pricing, but this is not a place for you to shop, it\'s a place for you to discuss scooters and get help from other owners and dealers. The more advertising, the more watered down the content. Quality content is the goal.

The other big thing is, Sporty is generating sales leads from the group, and I believe he only sells online. I don\'t think stepping on his toes or cutting his throat on the pricing would be a very nice thing to do since indirectly, he is the whole reason that the group and really this website exist. If the Yahoo group wasn\'t here, I seriously doubt I would have even started this site. Also, I am offering sponsorship here. Why sponsor us when you can advertise for free?

And the tone of Sporty\'s post seemed pretty relaxed to me, but I\'ll let him respond about that if he so chooses

I can mention to people or even add a line about trimming the postings, If people do it or not I guess its up to them.
I know posting prices would cause problems because I can beat any price if I want but I try to keep things on a even play field.
I was not and did not mean to be rude to Haymo in anyway but I don\'t have the time to watch every post for piggybacking.
Haymo, I\'m cool as can be.....Its in the 20s here.
I just think with all the rules in this world a place with less is even cooler
Sporty

Thanks Rob for the backup on pricing :wink: